[Matt2] howdy all, snowstorm here
[SirRandal] I've been keeping him company Bill
[Matt2] lol, poor Steve
[SirRandal] lol
[_Maxxer] Not a good night eh :/
[Matt2] Steve give me a few to get this going
[SirRandal] too cold everywhere I had trouble logging on
[Vampling] whats up tonight?
[SirRandal] Steve Hammack GUESTCHAT
[Matt2] welcome all and wew have afew more coming
[Matt2] we
[kingjames] kingjames
[Matt2] James how ya be
[kingjames] good thanx
[kingjames] been working nights
[kingjames] now back on real world time
[kingjames] matt gonna make the lbj meet in march
[SirRandal] welcome rattler
[kingjames] sorry april
[Rattler] ty
[SirRandal] hang on folks we're fixing to start in a min
[MichHerper] I need to think of some questions...lol
[SirRandal] you are a boa and python man Jeff
[SirRandal] lol
[Matt2] I woiuld love to James, dunnoi yet
[kingjames] i have moved since we talked last
[kingjames] i live right near the grasslands
[Matt2] Steve aya there
[MichHerper] I'm a colubrid man at heart. But I do love boas,
just don't know anything about malagasy boas
[SteveH] yup
[SirRandal] he'll talk abt sanzinia and dumerils, etc
[Matt2] sorry Steve, bad storm here..if I get dsiscon Randal will take over
[SteveH] cool
[MichHerper] ah, Dumerils, awesome
[SirRandal] lotta snow Bill?
[Matt2] yes, Randal and very high winds
[herpluver] thanks randal
[SirRandal] thanks herpl
[herpluver] for what?
[Matt2] but at least I wasn't at the last West Texas Herp Society Meet
[Matt2] :P
[kingjames] i need to talk to mr. price
[herpluver] i got two new tanks today
[Matt2] oh Lord, not Bill?
[HerpTavern] So About the Boas what is their favorite food that
keeps them sustained from eating more food for the longest?
[SirRandal] hiya Bill!
[BillLove] Gotta test our guest properly!
[SirRandal] wait your turn HerpTav
[SteveH] Yup, and he saved my butt several times with his wonderful slides.
[Matt2] Kathy is prettier
[SirRandal] lol
[Matt2] :)
[HerpTavern] i don't know when it is my turn never participated
in one of these before sorry
[SirRandal] Kathy will be onnext month
[SirRandal] Valentines Day I hope
[Matt2] I hoipe so..she is so much swqeeter
[Matt2] sweeter
[SirRandal] n/p herptav you will be called on
[MichHerper] Herp, it is pretty easy. Matt or Randal will go around
asking people in alphabetical order to ask their question
[HerpTavern] ook
[MichHerper] Wait to be called on to talk, it's a lot of funb
[MichHerper] -b
[Matt2] ok; lets get this started even if late:
[Matt2] Welcoe all to K.Com's January chat w/Stephen Hammack
[Matt2] A renowned zoo herper from Dallas/Ft Worth zoo
[Matt2] Thank you Steve for being here
[SteveH] Thanks for having me again.
[Matt2] first up for a Q: Sirrandal:
[SirRandal] pass
[SteveH] Fine then.
[SirRandal] lol
[Matt2] Mr Love, Sir
[SteveH] Oh no.
[BillLove] Hi Steve! I can't cut & paste from MS Word#$%@&!
Please pass while I type again.
[Matt2] HerpTavern
[HerpTavern] ok i am gonna type it up
[HerpTavern] What is the food that will provide them with the
most nutrients and hold them over fine for the longest keeping them full?
[SteveH] It depends on the type of snake and the size of the snake as well.
Did you have a specific snake you are asking about?
[SteveH] Large boas and pythons do well on rabbits.
[Matt2] kingjames:
[kingjames] what is the usual length as a adult/how much on average do they go for
[SteveH] Small types such as sanzinia do well on appropriately sized rats
[Matt2] sorry Steve, when finished w/question, could you type Next
[SteveH] Some sanzinia are rather small. I have a breeder male that is around 3' long.
WE have a large madagascan ground boa that is around 9'
[SteveH] At the zoo on the ground boa.
[SteveH] next.
[Matt2] Mich:
[MichHerper] I'm having trouble getting my neonate dumerils boa on to frozen thawed. He does fine
with live (only fuzzies though) I don't want him to be injured. He will only eat inside of his enclosure.
Do you have any tips on getting them to eat not only outside of their enclosure but also on to frozen thawed?
He was purchased as an absolute neonate.
[SteveH] Good one. Have you tried the deli cup method of placing the animal in a deli cup (large
one) with the food item over night.
[MichHerper] yes
[MichHerper] no luck, also tried chicken broth
[MichHerper] braining, the usually tricks
[SteveH] The other thing you could try is what I assist feeding. Just try holding the animal near
the head and offer the food item, YOu may have to agigate the snake and when they get angry they
will bite the food item. Then you can place them down gently.
[MichHerper] ok, thank you
[SteveH] next
[Matt2] Maxxx:
[_Maxxer] What morphs are available in ? If so what are they? Is there anywhere I can see
pictures?
[_Maxxer] Malagasy boas*
[Matt2] my turn; Steve how is you sanzinia colony doing
[Matt2] oops, sorry
[_Maxxer] heheh :P
[SteveH] There are a couple of locales of Sanzinia, green phase and the brown Mandarin phase.
There are supposedly striped madagascan ground boas. No albinos of any of them that I am aware of.
There are also some very pink Dumerils boas out there.
[SteveH] Unless there is something out there I am not aware of.
[SteveH] next
[_Maxxer] thanks
[Matt2] my question, scroll back
[SteveH] Good so far. I only have 1.2 proven breeders and at this point it looks like both females
may be gravid.
[SteveH] They are the green phase.
[SteveH] It might interest every one that Bill Love and I have articles coming out in the next
(April) issue of Reptiles on Sanzinia.
[SteveH] Bills article is called "The Malagasy Tree Boa - Notes on Natural History and Variations
Across a Mini-Continent"
[SteveH] Mine is called Captive Husbandry of the Lamagasy Tree Bos, Sanzinia madagascariensis.
[SirRandal] Did you go to Madagascar with Mr. Love? and did he get you lost out there? hahahahaha!
[SteveH] No but I wish he had!
[Matt2] Sirrandal:
[SirRandal] lol
[SirRandal] did it
[SteveH] I wish I could go there with him. They sound like wonderful trips.
[SteveH] next
[Matt2] Mr. Love:
[BillLove] Miguel Vences told me that there MAY be something odd going on in the relationship
between Dumeril's boas and Malagasy ground boas (which I suspected too) that maybe they're
actually the same species with an intergrade zone or wide area of intermingling going on in the
mid-south of Madagascar where their ranges meet. Ever heard of them interbreeding in captivity?
[SteveH] I have never heard of anyone intentionally doing it, but I don
[SteveH] Don't know what all is going on out there.
[SteveH] Hudson from our zoo has a photo from the field of a supposed intergrade.
[SteveH] When he got his IMS grant in the late 80's to do DNA on all the Dumerils in Zoos, he also
checked the DNA of severl madagascariensis.
[BillLove] I know that the grond boas are not common enough to experiment on yet, but it would be a
logical thing to try. I'd bet they'd breed together just fine.
[SteveH] The results of this were that they were pure and seperate species.
[SteveH] But is was a small sample and the locale of the madagascariensis was not for sure known.
[SteveH] I bet they would also. There are several that I have seen for sale here on KS that I would
suspect are intergrades.
[BillLove] I've found ground boas down where the range map (in Vences and Glaw's field guide) shows
A. dumerili.
[BillLove] At least they were ground boas by the head scales.
[Matt2] HerpT, your turn:
[SteveH] Interesting. There is still a lot we do not know about at this time.
[HerpTavern] Off Topic: About the red tail boas what age do they sexually mature at and what size
enclosure would last a pair there liftime with out being too spacious or too small? Also are they
the snakes that give live birth, if so how do they maintain their nutrients?
[HerpTavern] ---]the babies
[SteveH] Red tails do give live birth. Most can reach sexual maturity at about 3 years but some
have bred them as early as 18 months.
[HerpTavern] wow
[SteveH] Depending on the type and locale of the boa a 4' vision cage would work just fine.
[SteveH] next
[Matt2] kingjames:
[kingjames] still wondering on cost average of the dumerils
[SteveH] They have a range of from around $100 to around $250 depending on the color and amount
of pink in them. The pinker they are the more they cost.
[SteveH] I have seen them cheaper, but they were is bulk and not very brightly colored.
[SteveH] next
[Matt2] Mich:
[MichHerper] What is your prefered substrate for ground boas?
[SteveH] At the zoo and home I use cypress mulch. it is cheap and holds the humibity rather well.
[MichHerper] thank you
[SteveH] next
[Matt2] Scott
[ScottsReptiles] Pass (sorry!)
[HerpTavern] good nite everyone thanks Steve,Matt,Sirrandal
[SteveH] Good night.
[Matt2] my turn: I heartd you gave a great lecture at WTHS..is this true
[SteveH] Yes it was. I feel that I should have gotten an award for the best talk of the year for
the WTHS, but they slighted me on it.
[SteveH] Actually I almost did not make it. It was a long drive and I got a speeding ticket on
the way there.
[Matt2] lol; I'm on the Board etc..I'll advise
[Matt2] Mr Love:
[BillLove] Knowing about the similarities between South American and Malagasy herps, doesn't it
seem amazing how much some gray - tan Sanzinia resemble Amazon tree boas, and how Dumeril's and
ground boas look like Boa constrictor in build, lifestyle, even color / pattern, especially to
Argentine boas? I'm talking general appearance, not genetics.
[SteveH] Yes, it is a great example of convergent evolution.
[SteveH] You have seen more than anyone in the field.
[SteveH] I am jealous because of this.
[BillLove] Well, they (Sanzinia) are sure common enough there!
[Matt2] (Bill when ya get a chance, please check pm)
[Matt2] and sorry I missed SirRandal:
[SirRandal] I can't remember (old age) but the late John McLain was the studbook holder for
Dumerils at one time I believe, my question is, is there still a studbook for them? and is there
really still a need for one, knowing todays "glut" of Dumerils in the private sector?
[SteveH] No and in fact it was officially disbanded at this years, 2002 snake TAG meeting.
[SirRandal] ahh thanks
[Matt2] kingjames:
[SirRandal] I missed that mtg
[SteveH] The last update what in 87.
[SteveH] next
[Matt2] oops sorry if I interrupted
[Matt2] Mich:
[MichHerper] Sorry, off of topic. I know you work with asian ratsnakes as well. In particulate
Elaphe taeinura, I have a pair of freisi and a blue beauty together. Originally I was told it was
a simple 1.2 trio, you know how that goes. Had the blue probed. TUrns out my 1.2 turned into 2.1
The cage is 6x2x3ft with lots of decoration. Do you see a problem keeping elaphe taeinura in
reverse trios?
[SteveH] So long as they get along they sould be OK. have you noticed any problems with them?
[MichHerper] not at all, they even hide together
[SteveH] Of course you will not know which male breeds the female either.
[MichHerper] Thank you again
[SteveH] next
[MichHerper] Well, if the babies come out green I will :)
[Matt2] Ogre; your tuen:
[Matt2] turn
[OgreFade] pass for now
[Matt2] Scott:
[ScottsReptiles] Pass Please
[Matt2] Steve; what do you see as the future for Malagasy herps?
[SteveH] Good one. There will virtually be no more fresh legal bloodlines of any of them in the
near future.
[SteveH] They are all appendix 1.
[SteveH] In the late 90's there were a number of sanzinia that made it into the coutry illegally.
Many of these made it into private breeders hands.
[SteveH] Those that were consfiscated made it too zoos, so the future on some in a little bleak
mainly the madagascan ground boa.
[SteveH] At the current time, in zoos there are the following.
[SteveH] 70.71.59 Dumerils
[SteveH] 30.38.14 madagascan grounds
[SteveH] 148.117.49 sanzinia
[SteveH] Hope that helps.
[SteveH] next
[Matt2] Followup: Do you see Bill Love in Malagasy again?
[Matt2] :)
[SteveH] Oh yes, many times still to come.
[Matt2] SirRandal:
[SirRandal] Maybe Bill can answer this one better, but you don't think Magagascar will set a quota
on boa's and pythons in the future?
[BillLove] I hope you'll give that same Malagay boid slidetalk at the Houston IHS in September.
Also, aside from legalities, don't you think the influx of baby Sanzinia a few years ago was GOOD
for U.S. herpetocultural bloodlines?
[BillLove] I doubt they'll open up on boids anytime soon - it'd be slapping the hand that feeds
you for Madagascar to do that.
[SteveH] Yes it was very good for the bloodlines in captivity.
[SirRandal] follow up: why?
[SteveH] I agree, no boas will be coming out legally anymore from there.
[SteveH] I have an example of why I say this. In 1989 Jersy had a wildlife accord with the
government of Madagascar.
[SteveH] They took out 2.2 wild sanzinia for the purpose of sending them to For tWorth from
England.
[SteveH] Both females were wild gravids.
[SteveH] The US Fish & Wild life service said no to the import to us from England, and that it
did not benefit the species in the field.
[SteveH] Both females gave birth and they were not equipped to deal with them and most of the
babies died.
[OgreFade] aww man.. how can you not be equipped.
[SteveH] That is sad to me. They were already out of the country of origin but our government
said no to the importation.
[SteveH] We are taliing about zoos here as well, not private breeders.
[OgreFade] dunno how its possible not to be equipped.
[SteveH] Next year I will attempt to send captive sanzinia to canada. I will like to see how long
that will take if it is approved at all.
[SteveH] I just got a CITES export permit to send sand boas to Canada and that was no problem,
but they are appendix II not appendix I.
[SteveH] next
[kingjames] good night everyone
[Blazin] I'll pass and take this in for a while
[Matt2] Steve: we're up on the hour altho I got a late start due to satorm here..would you like
to continue for an additonal 1/2 hr?
[SteveH] good night james
[Matt2] oops, storm
[SteveH] sure if they want me to.
[Blazin] yeah
[Matt2] Mr Love:
[BillLove] Seems a counterproductive move for the FWS, not letting more Sanzinia in to a zoo -
if they let them in, there'd be more work for them to keep an eye on them so their jobs wouldn't
be as likely to get cut when their budget gets the ax.
[SteveH] True, but I am not sure what they are doing. I have another example from them as well.
[SteveH] When I was at the Dallas zoo, the city of dallas was city sister to Aukland new zealand.
[SteveH] They wanted to send us 2.2 wild tuataras for our new exhibit as a give from them to us.
[SteveH] Guess who said no, that it would not benefit the speies in the field?
[SteveH] So we got 7 captive from the university instead.
[OgreFade] WHAT?! oh man they should have.. tuatara's are awesome.
[Matt2] Ogre; wait your turn
[SteveH] next
[Matt2] Blazin:
[Blazin] ill pass
[Blazin] '
[Matt2] Bluid
[Matt2] Ogre:
[OgreFade] How did you get your start in zoo's and what kind of education do you have?
[SteveH] WEll I do not have college degree, I have 85 hours towards a degree. I have always had
an interest in herps and while in college got to work closely with a herp professor on many projects.
[OgreFade] how would you recommend getting involved in a closely related field?
[SteveH] I then applied to a museum and then a zoo. I have been at fort worth zoo for 13 years,
the dallas zoo before that for 4.5 years and the museum of science and history for 3.5 years before
that.
[SteveH] Try hooking up with a professor in your area if there is one. Many times they will hire
work study students or reasearch assistanships.
[SteveH] Also try checking with the nearst zoo fi there is one and ask about volunteer programs.
[OgreFade] I was asking because I graduate with a BS in biology in 2 months, and I'm interested
in that sort of work.
[SteveH] I did the volunteer thing for many years at fort worth zoo before I landed a job there.
[SteveH] Cool. Good luck.
[OgreFade] thx
[Matt2] Scott:
[SteveH] next
[ScottsReptiles] Pass
[Matt2] I pass: Sirrandal:
[SirRandal] As at least two of you know, several years ago, I worked at a large herp dealership
that had sanzinia in the shop, as a result, the owner was popped and served time, and most of the
snakes were sold before the feds jumped in. The result was sanzinia started showing up at expos,
etc, my question is, how will this effect bloodlines as (we) at zoo's know it?
[SteveH] Not sure I really understand what you are asking?
[SteveH] Are you asking if this will muddy the bloodlines?
[SirRandal] If surplus animals show up at zoo's by purchasing from a dealer, how will it effect
current bloodlines?
[SirRandal] yes
[SteveH] I know that in one year, a couple of years ago, we produced around 30 baby sanzinia and
sold all to Bushmaster reptiles.
[SteveH] I guess as long as good records are kept it should work out. YOu just have to be very
careful about what and where you are getting your animals and do your best to get some form of
paper trail.
[SirRandal] I agree Thanks
[Matt2] Mr Love:
[BillLove] Too bad FWS doesn't widely recognize captive breeding as a helpful tool, instead of
ONLY the worry that it's just a smuggler's excuse to cover wild-caught specimens in the trade.
It IS true that that happens a little at first when there's any legal trade, but then CB efforts
soon swamp the market and make smuggling less profitable and less common. FWS can't seem to
comprehend how that works.
[SteveH] True.
[Matt2] (btw) Bill Love; please check pm)
[SirRandal] Very good Bill!
[SteveH] My sanzinia are from the San Antonio zoo with paperwork.
[SteveH] Always ask for paper work if possible.
[BillLove] I wish they'd get a herper / former herper in their ranks to show them how it works in
the real world.
[SteveH] If the dealer got them from a zoo they can give you at least a copy of an invoice from
the zoo.
[SteveH] I actully thought about it once, but since I do not have a college degree I figured it
would not work.
[SteveH] Glad I didn
[SteveH] didn't now.
[SirRandal] lol
[Matt2] Blazin:
[Blazin] I would like to know what your take is on the temperature as it relates to color
determination in leopard geckos.
[SteveH] Then I would have become "One of them"
[Blazin] I mean during incubation
[SteveH] Supposedly the warmer the temps the brighter and more varied the pattern.
[SteveH] next
[Matt2] Ogre:
[SteveH] Blazin, you will also get a lot of aggressive HOT females.
[SteveH] next
[OgreFade] I'm curious which institution you think is the best zoo whatever... int he us
[OgreFade] 'in the US' Zoo/safari/aquarium/etc.
[SteveH] Texas is blessed with some of the finer and larger herpetariums.
[SteveH] There is Houston, San Antonio, Dallas, Fort Worth, Waco,
[SteveH] There are also some others out there as well, such as St. Louis, San Diego.
[SteveH] I an sure there are others I have missed.
[Matt2] Scott:
[SteveH] next
[ScottsReptiles] pass
[Matt2] My turn..how tired are ya Steve or a few more minutes?
[SteveH] I'll stay on longer if they want me to.
[OgreFade] :)
[Matt2] unless you're getting old like some of us
[Matt2] :)
[SteveH] I definitely am getting old.
[NajaAnja_pass] lol
[SirRandal] he is
[Matt2] SirRandal:
[SirRandal] pass
[Matt2] Blazin:
[Blazin] You said supposedely on my last question I take it you and your wife have not noticed
or tried this with your leos?
[SteveH] No, we only do the temp for sexing the animals, we do not do it for better, brighter
color.
[Blazin] thanks
[SteveH] next
[Matt2] herpl:
[herpluver] pass
[Matt2] Ogre
[OgreFade] What is your favorite herp?
[SteveH] Too many to name just one, but probably green tree pythons are at the top.
[SteveH] I also like all the freak and mutant color phases and patterns of them all.
[SteveH] I love any albino herp.
[OgreFade] follow up: whats your favorite monitor?
[SteveH] Green tree, but Komodos are my next favorite.
[OgreFade] do you get to keep Komodo's?
[SteveH] Our komodos at the zoo are tame and we regularly go in with them to work their cages,
except during feeding time!
[OgreFade] *at the facilities ?
[OgreFade] that'd work.
[OgreFade] that'd make my day
[SteveH] Our display koomodo thinks he is a lap dog, a 125 lb lap dog!
[OgreFade] HAH! with a nastttty bite :)
[SteveH] If you sit down and stay still long enough he will crawl in your lap.
[NajaAnja_pass] thats cool
[OgreFade] thats really cool..
[Matt2] Scott:
[Boyle19] Hello All
[Matt2] My turn and Bill Love will be last: Steve; does the salavi thing change in komodos in
captivity, off-topic
[SteveH] Yes, the captive ones do not have the toxic saliva.
[OgreFade] is it because they don't eat the rotten stuff?
[OgreFade] aka scavenge?
[SteveH] That has been tested and it is not that bad.
[SteveH] Probably that is the reason.
[NajaAnja_pass] i wondered about that, similar to the dart frogs in captivity
[OgreFade] right dart frogs don't eat the nasties
[OgreFade] in captivity
[Matt2] SirRandal and then Bill Love
[SirRandal] How many times have you been to Madagascar? and if not, may I suggest someone to
take you? lol!
[SteveH] I have not and I do not have the money either!
[SirRandal] Bill does
[Matt2] Mr Love:
[SteveH] I would love to go there at some time.
[BillLove] I've run out of interesting Qs for Steve; thanx for chatting again, even on dragon
drool! Gotta run and check some heaters before the BIG chill down here tonight. - - - Yes,
I'll hang on for you later, Matt2. Wazzup?
[SteveH] I guess that is all for me.
[SirRandal] Thanks Steve!!!
[OgreFade] Thanks
[SteveH] Thanks again everyone.
[Blazin] Gracias
[BillLove] Big thanx!
[NajaAnja_pass] Thanks Steve, tell Kelli I said HI
[OgreFade] be sure to give me lots of recommendations so i can get a neato job at a zoo
[SteveH] Sure enough.
[OgreFade] heh
[Matt2] Welp, we're up on our time folks, thanks so much for Steve's patience in my absence due
to storm
[OgreFade] i wish i'll probably be at DQ :)
[NajaAnja_pass] sorry i missed all of it, was busy writing webpages :-P
[SteveH] Good night!
[Matt2] on behalp of myself, JeffB and Kingsnake.com..thanks so much to Steve Hammack for taking
of his time tonight.
